There are interviews that simply serve to present an album… and then there are conversations with Arjen Lucassen, where you end up talking about creativity, impossible concerts, technology applied to live shows, and a musical universe that has been growing against any commercial logic for more than three decades.
While preparing An Amazing Flight Through Time, the new Ayreon live release arriving next June, we once again sat down with the Dutch musician for an incredibly close and relaxed conversation. In fact, Arjen had just received the first copies of the release at home and was showing them to us fresh out of the boxes, surrounded by nerves and the not-so-small perspective of having to sign thousands of copies over the next few days.
Between memories, laughs and confessions about his life away from touring, Lucassen also spoke about the future of Ayreon, Dino Jelusick, Bruce Dickinson, possible new live shows and even a hypothetical interest in Alfred Romero from Dark Moor. Because entering Arjen’s universe always ends up feeling like a conversation between old music fans… except that on the other side sits one of the great architects of modern progressive metal.
David Aresté
M.S: Hello Arjen, it’s a pleasure to have you once again on our website. We imagine everything is ready for An Amazing Flight Through Time, which will be released in June, right?
Arjen: Yes, correct, I received it today, look..
M.S: How did everything turn out?
Arjen: Perfect, perfect. Well, the first edition of the artbook was pressed incorrectly. So they made around 5,000 copies or whatever, I don’t know exactly. And I think the sleeve was bent and wrong. So there was panic, but they fixed it very quickly. And today I received all the copies, which is a good sign on one hand, you know? But on the other hand, it means I’ll have to sign them all. So that’ll take me a week. But no, no… it turned out great. And a few weeks ago we did a screening with the whole crew and everybody loved it. The camera work is really good, much better than last time. I think last time everything was too shaky, there were too many slow motions and things like that. But this time it’s a bit more relaxed, you know? You see everything you want to see. And of course, the musicians did an amazing job.
M.S: You’ve already released three live albums. Production-wise, what’s different about this one compared to the previous ones?
Arjen: Well, 01011001 was completely over the top. Everything was over the top. The whole stage was over the top. Everything was huge and there were many things happening at the same time. Also the video editing, like I just said, was more hectic. I think this one is more relaxed. Like the first half of the set, there were songs we had never played before. And I chose many more atmospheric songs. Not all of them, of course, there were also some pretty heavy ones. But I wanted to give it a bit more space. You know, if too many things happen, you miss half of it. Like with 01011001, there was this huge stage, and there were like 15 musicians on stage most of the time. We had around 20 speakers spread throughout the venue, so we had full surround sound. And half the people didn’t even notice it, you know? Because there was too much to see. And there were explosions, and lasers. This time I wanted to build things up slowly. So we started with “My House On Mars”, which is a calm song, which is unusual.
M.S: You’ve found the perfect place in Tilburg for your shows…
Arjen: Yes, true. If it’s a festival, you shouldn’t do it that way, you know? If it’s a festival, you have to go all out. But that’s why I like playing at 013. You know, it’s only 3,000 people and it feels cozy somehow. You have that pit, the stairs going up. And yes, you have more direct contact with the audience. So if you start with a slow song, people have time to look at each other and at the people on stage. And on stage you also have time to notice things. Yeah, I liked it for a change.
M.S: You’ve done two Ayreon best-of shows and another one performing a full album. Is it time to play another complete album live? Have you thought about which one?
Arjen: Yes, I’ve been thinking about it all the time, of course. I think there are two options. There’s The Theory of Everything and there’s The Source. The Theory of Everything would be difficult because it’s a story. It would be more like a theatre production, like we did with The Theatre Equation. We would need all the original singers. They would have to play their characters. So it’s a completely different approach. I’m not a theatre guy. It wouldn’t be just walking on stage. It would be about focusing, acting and things like that. So that would be difficult, but it’s a challenge, and I like challenges. And The Source would be… easier than The Theory of Everything, yes.
M.S: So there’s no certainty yet about another Ayreon show.
Arjen: At this moment we haven’t decided anything yet. We’re taking it easy and I’m really focused on a new Ayreon album right now.
M.S: Because maybe people are already starting to see it as normal: instead of going to Hellfest or Sweden Rock, they go to Ayreon City.
Arjen: (Laughs) Yes… but we still can’t promise anything.
M.S: There was a year when you played festivals. Have you thought about doing that again? Maybe with a core band and some guests, like Avantasia.
Arjen: Yes, of course. We played Graspop and we headlined there. Which was great, because you play for around 20,000 people. That’s fantastic. But putting together an Ayreon show takes a lot of time and money. You work on it for a whole year. So I don’t know if we would do it again. We’d need a really good offer to make it happen.
M.S: Many years ago we interviewed you and you told us you didn’t like touring. Do you still feel the same way?
Arjen: Oh yes, yes, yes. I will never tour again. Never. I toured for 15 years during the 80s and 90s with Bodine and Vengeance. And I was young and wild, and I liked, you know, life on the road. It was fun, to some extent. But at some point I thought: this is not my life. Being on tour, waiting around, riding buses, having to deal with people I don’t like… No. I realized I much prefer being creative, staying in my studio and working on new music than touring. So I’m 100% sure about that: I will never tour again. So I’m very sorry. That means people will have to come to Holland to see Ayreon live. But that’s just the way it is. I’m very much a hermit. I like staying in my studio and creating things. And at night I like lying on the couch watching TV shows. That’s my life. Very boring.
M.S: Going back to the new live release, was it difficult choosing a setlist from 30 years of career?
Arjen: Not really. Once I decided to do all the songs we had never played before in the first half, and songs I think the fans love, like “Loser”, “Everybody Dies”, “Dawn of a Million Souls”, “Valley of the Queens”… those are songs you have to play. It’s like Europe going out there and not playing “The Final Countdown”. There are certain songs we have to play, so I wrote them down. And there were also songs I was very curious to hear live because they had never been played live before. So I made the list pretty quickly. And the good thing is that I’m the boss, so I don’t have to argue with anyone. I’m sure if you have a band it would be like “I don’t want to do that one, I want to do this one”… I didn’t have that problem. I just made a list and said: this is what we’re doing. I have to say it was difficult not to do certain songs. There are songs I would have loved to play, but either we already played them or we can still do them someday.
M.S: Maybe this live release is for premium Ayreon fans because it’s such an exclusive setlist with rare songs you had never played before.
Arjen: Yes, I think so. I think it was a risk to play songs we had never done before. Because, like I say in my speech, there’s probably a reason we never played them before: because they’re not fan favorites. They’re more underground songs. Again, starting with “House on Mars”… it’s just weird. But I like doing weird things and I like challenges. And I think many people enjoyed hearing those songs for the first time, like “Dragon on the Sea” or whatever. Originally it’s an acoustic song, just acoustic guitar. And we turned it into a rock song. That was cool too, making a different version of the song. We already know the album version. I like doing that. I like performing songs differently live, choosing a different singer than the one on the album. That way it sounds different. Like “Into the Black Hole”, originally sung by Bruce Dickinson, then sung by Tommy on The Universal Migrator, and now sung by Damien. I like those little changes.
M.S: When doing live shows like this, what’s more challenging: the musical aspect or the technical one when bringing the Ayreon world to life?
Arjen: It’s a huge challenge, because Ayreon was never meant to be a live project. I started Ayreon because I didn’t want to play live. That was the reason. And I thought it was impossible to do live. But Joost made it possible with The Theatre Equation. He made all of this possible. He arranged all the music. Nowadays it’s possible. We have lots of sound effects. Now you can load them into a computer and sync them with timecode, which gives you many more possibilities. Like in “Age of Shadows”, the weird machine sounds at the beginning and things like that. That wouldn’t have been possible 30 years ago. But nowadays it is. Still, doing it live is always a challenge. But if I have someone like Joost, the keyboard player who organizes everything, it makes my job much easier.
M.S: He’s your genie in the lamp.
Arjen: Basically, he’s the boss. I have the ideas, I choose the songs, I choose the singers, I choose the effects and what’s going to happen. And he makes it happen.
M.S: You’re the boss in the dark.
Arjen: That’s exactly how I want it. I want to stay in the dark.
M.S: Which musician surprised you the most?
Arjen: Most of them had already worked with me before. Even so, they still surprise me with how good they continue to be. Of course, the only new singer this time was Dino Jelusick. He completely surprised me. I mean, I knew he was good. I remember the first time I saw him on YouTube and thought: what the hell is this? I’ve worked with the best in the world, with Jorn Lande, with Russell Allen… I’m used to the best. And when you see a singer who’s at that level, that doesn’t happen often. But with Dino it did. I contacted him. Luckily he already knew me and liked my music. So it was like: let’s work together. On the Star One album we did “The Year of ’41”, but we couldn’t use it because of problems with his label. He had a complicated contract. But for these live shows I said: let’s do that song live. And I also gave him difficult parts, like “Dawn of a Million Souls”, originally sung by Russell Allen. Everyone was great, as always, but the surprise was Dino.
M.S: What do you think people will feel when they watch it at home?
Arjen: When they watch what? At home? You mean when they watch the Blu-ray at home? I have no idea. I hope they like it. Like I said, we did a screening with the whole crew, around a hundred people. It was the entire technical team and the musicians, and we were sitting in a small room with a big screen. I have to say it sounded really good. It’s a bit arrogant to say because I produced it and handled the sound. But it really sounded very transparent, that’s the word. You could hear everything. You could hear every little detail and every singer was crystal clear. And the same goes for the video editing, you could see everything, nobody was left in the dark. And believe me, on previous DVDs we had many problems with that. It was like: the singer is in the dark, we can’t see him. So you have to show something else. The singer is singing, but he’s in the dark. Especially on The Theatre Equation we had that problem a lot. It was terrible. Half the time people were in the dark, which was also the lighting crew’s mistake. But this time everything flowed very naturally. It was very easy to edit and very easy for me to produce the sound.
M.S: Would you see streaming platforms as a viable option? Or maybe it’s a modern way to experience a live show?
Arjen: I hope so. I’m always in favor of that. There are people who don’t own DVD or Blu-ray players. I want as many people as possible to see it. And of course, you can watch things on YouTube. I watch YouTube on my television, so it’s fine. But not everybody does that. I always ask the label: will it be on streaming platforms? So far it has always been on Vimeo, I think. I don’t know if that still exists. I don’t know if this one will be on Vimeo. But I always hope so. And people ask me this question a lot. I don’t see why not.
M.S: In cinemas it would be amazing.
Arjen: It would be amazing. Of course, whenever we do a live show, we always have cinema screenings. And then we have 5.1 sound all around the venue. I’m always very proud when I see that.
M.S: Within your musical universe — Star One, Supersonic Revolution, Ayreon or your solo albums — which one would you say comes next?
Arjen: Ayreon. Definitely. I think it’s time. Because I’ve done too many side projects. After the last Ayreon, Transitus, I did Supersonic Revolution, I did Plan 9, I did Simone’s album, I did the live shows… And I really think it’s time for Ayreon. And I think people also feel it’s time for Ayreon. I’m specifically working in that direction right now.
M.S: In the previous interview we mentioned the possibility of inviting someone from the Spanish metal scene, Alfred Romero from Dark Moor. Have you thought about it?
Arjen: Ah, Alfred. I’m going to write that down.
M.S: Throughout your career you’ve gathered incredible voices. Is there any singer or musician you still dream of collaborating with?
Arjen: Yes, the list is endless. I have a list of around 200 singers I grew up listening to. For me it’s always incredible working with people I listened to when I was around 20 years old. Like working with Bruce Dickinson was incredible. And of course, I would have loved to work with people like Dio and others. But the thing is, I have to hurry up. I’m 66 now, and these people are in their 70s or even 80s. Ian Gillan is over 80 now, so I really have to hurry. But yes, people like Ian Gillan, Robert Plant, David Coverdale… those are the singers I listened to as a kid, so it’s amazing. But having said that, there are also many new singers who are incredible. The only thing is that they have to compete with Russell Allen, Jorn Lande or Dino Jelusick. If they’re not at that level… But yes, I also have a list of new singers I’d like to work with, who probably don’t know me. So I don’t know if I’ll be able to get them. You never know. If they don’t like my music or don’t know me, it’s more difficult. But yes, I’m always thinking about the future and making lists of people I could work with. Maybe Alfred Romero, who knows.
M.S: And someone you’ve already worked with and would like to work with again?
Arjen: Yes, of course. People like Damien, Anneke and Mike Mills. They are people I would always want to work with. They’ve become part of the Ayreon family. Definitely. I think the new Ayreon will be a combination of people I’ve already worked with many times and maybe a couple of new people I’ve never worked with before. Who knows.
M.S: We’ve reached the end. Thank you for your time, it’s been an honor. If you want to close the interview, this is your moment. Good luck and we were going to say we hoped to see you live someday, but you already told us no, so never mind (Laughs).
Arjen: (Laughs) I’m sorry, I can’t promise anything. But a new Ayreon album is hopefully also a good promise. I hope to have it ready next year, but I’m also moving house, so I’m not sure I’ll make it. But I’m going to work extra hard.
M.S: I don’t know how many interviews I’ve done with you, but it’s always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much for your time.
Arjen: Until next time David, thank you very much.
David Aresté